Breaking News: Georgian Official Reports Downing of 2 Russian Aircraft

That's not a Soviet Characteristic, it's a Russian one. The Soviets just borrowed it.

Part of the Russian national identity has been what a professor of mine called "Big Daddy Slav" for.. well... centuries now. The Russians are the regional power and hold ethnic and cultural ground with many of the Slavic peoples that surround their boarders. Historically therefore, the Russians have tended to exhibit a patriarchal role in their relations with some of their neighbors.

It's not always welcome.

This is just more of the same from Russia - playing the same game they've been playing since Peter the Great in the 1700s.

I wonder what China thinks of this.

Since the 1962 Sino-Soviet split the Chinese have gotten a sort of Schadenfreude-esq glee out of anything unfortunate that happens to Russia. That rift between Khrushchev and Mao has never really healed.

KF

Georgia is the most ancient of home of Orthodox Christianity outside Turkey. They were Christians while the Rus were still pagan barbarians. Further, the Ossetians are descended from the Alani nomadic tribes of the Caucasus and are certainly not Slavs. This is, as you put it, is simply another "greater" Russia move by that KGB goon Putin.

#2.2 Yeah, right on that Killfile. Just came from an MSNBC seed moderated by Prompt and one Russian (dunno, sounded like an ex-pat) said Moscow wants serious influence in the Caucasus and is scared the pro-West Georgian President might unite Georgia, making entry into NATO easier.

http://prompt.newsvine.com/_news/2008/08/07/1729917-georgia-pounds-breakaway-capital#c2401868

That one I guess - seems to have the traffic.

I'm curious to see where this goes!!!

Bill - I'm aware of the ethnic makeup of the region. Russian and soviet influence in the area has, however, lead to a bit more complex situation than simple tribal ancestry might suggest. South Osstia is somewhere around 2% ethnic Russian which isn't much but provides enough domestic political justification for Russia.

The "big daddy slav" angle is just one of many -- historic Russian interest in the region goes back well into Tsarist times for reasons both strategic and religious. Point being that Russia wanting to meddle in the affairs of this part of the world isn't something that can be attributed to any given regime in Russian history.

It most certainly can insofar as the old Tsarist pan-Slavic "protectors of the faith" schtick is concerned. Traditional Russian and Soviet interests were more focused on two areas -- the Balkans and the "Great Game" in central and southwest Asia. This area was always more of a backwater most famous for producing Stalin than anything else. The primary reason South Ossetians hold Russian passports is the Soviet legacy and the reason Putin's interested is that he wants to intimidate all of his neighbors and recreate a Russian variant of the Soviet Union hiding behind a mask of supposedly traditional Russian aims.

On a lighter note, I've been thinking of inviting one of our (the NYT's group) old friends Mike Averko to join Newsvine. You won't find a bigger Putin apologist anywhere including Russia itself.

Did Putin not publicly say that the loss of the Soviet empire was the greatest tragedy? Is this a first step to take all of Georgia? And then what other ex-Soviet republic is next? Does the west sit by and watch them fall one by one, as a "Greater Russia" is re-assembled? Do we have a choice? Will it destroy NATO? The UN? This may seem small - but then so did Franz Ferdinand, for a moment in time.

Chasing, Putin also says: "Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain." (Russian President on the 2000 US presidential election , b.1952)

"Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart. Whoever wants it back has no brain."

So which convenient soundbite do we choose to believe? Or ought we not rather resort to the facts on the ground?

Chasing, I do not understand is Putin night attacked Tbilisi, using tanks, heavy artillery and MLRS? Putin declared a truce, which violated an hour?
Think logically, if Misha Saakashvili caught on the Russian-planned provocation, why almost all Georgian troops, equipped with offensive weapons, done a good appearance near Tskhinvali at the right time?

Think logically

Of course Georgia attacked. If Texas tried to seceed, I'm sure the US would do the same. Even if Russia saw fit to give all us Texans Russian passports. Georgia gambled, and lost. But that doesn't make Russia right, IMHO.

And what Russia is not right? Russian troops in South Ossetia lawfully, under the peace treaty signed by Georgia and South Ossetia. They perform a peacekeeping mission to separate the sides in the conflict, as mandated by the UN. Georgia brutally violated terms of the peace treaty, and international humanitarian law. That is a fact.
Against battalion of Russian peacekeepers, was thrown the whole military machine of Georgia. Russia had to leave their soldiers and civilians to their fate? For what purpose peacekeepers are needed in this case?
Read the eyewitness, that Georgia does with their people, search on Newsvine: "South Ossetians describe fleeing from the fighting" by Associated Press.

Of course Georgia attacked. If Texas tried to seceed, I'm sure the US would do the same. Even if Russia saw fit to give all us Texans Russian passports. Georgia gambled, and lost. But that doesn't make Russia right, IMHO.

At this point it is less important who's right or was right but that everybody stop fighting and back away. The question of who the disputed territory belongs to can be decided by referendum rather than force of arms.

Russian troops in South Ossetia lawfully, under the peace treaty signed by Georgia and South Ossetia.

Except a) they are hardly being peacekeepeers, and b) they have struck beyond Ossetia into Georgia proper, after c) refusing a cease-fire offered by the Georgians.

We're never going to agree. As a sovereign nation, Georgia can ask "peacekeepers" to leave at any time. And I do consider SO part of Georgia. We clearly aren't to change each others' minds.

The question of who the disputed territory belongs to can be decided by referendum rather than force of arms.

Why? What if West Texas and Southern New Mexico decide to have a referendum to join Mexico? Or, I don't know, for Southern States to seceed? Why is our nation indissolvable, but Georgia not?

Chasing, а U.S. and NATO strongly respect the territorial integrity of Serbia?

Chasing, а U.S. and NATO strongly respect the territorial integrity of Serbia?

Are you suggesting two wrongs make a right - assuming you even think the Serbia situation was a wrong? Otherwise throwing out a counter-examples proves nothing in the current context.

Russia has tried to respect the territorial integrity and international law, but was put before the fact - Western powers to respect international law, only in those cases when it is advantageous. U.S. acted away from their territory, they had no historical ties with Albanians, there was no common border, and its own indigenous Albanian population. They had no UN mandate, which has Russian peacekeepers and purposefully bombed civilian installations such as power stations and bridges across the Danube. Russia does not do such things.

So Putin is no better than George Bush morally. Tell me something I didn't already know: they are both petty tyrants, only Vladimir has far fewer restraints on his temper tantrums.

@#2.23
What the peacekeepers should do, if one of the conflicting sides the invaded on the territory of another side? They should repel the attack, according to its mandate. What should do a country, who send peacekeepers in case unequal forces? Send reinforcements. What peacekeepers should do if attacked side uses to attack military infrastructure in the depth of its territory? This infrastructure should be destroyed by air strikes to stop the attack.
I do not see the moral problems and illegal acts. Georgia itself signed peace treaties, and the Georgian leadership knows what's on when to order the night attack on Tskhinvali.
I am not worried about Putin or Bush's moral code - you have to look at actions, not on people. The actions of Russia in Ossetia justified and morally and legally, unlike the American action in Serbia.

They should repel the attack

In Putinese, this means carpet bomb the civilians, as he did when he committed his acts of butchery in Chechnya.

It seems you have not much love for Putin and the Russians. They probably killed your beloved kitten, or something? I will not argue with you more, but I think that everyone who can find and analyze the facts, will come to the conclusion that Russia had been correct in this situation, regardless of how it acted in others.
If you knew a lot about the war, you would have saw that the shots with damaged Georgian apartament buildings, showed a hit by unguided missile, seems to be pilot's error, rather than carpet bombing.

I'm calling a spade a spade. You should see some of the things I've said about the guy running this country. I haven't even used the second barrel on Polonium Putin yet.

Russia does not do such things.

You might have a point if Russia, as peacekeepers, pushed Georgia out of SO. Which they could easily have done.

But they didn't.

Instead they started a two-pronged war, invading Georgia from two sides, attacking and taking cities within Georgia and not simply SO, and effectively cut the nation in half.

I'm sorry, your argument may have had a leg to stand on when it was simple repulsion of Georgian aggression - a state which lasted maybe a few hours - but now the legs it has left are precisely zero.

Russia was, is and will be under dictator regime. There's no way to turn it into democracy country. There's no foundation for this purpose. (I'm a Russian, unfortunately) Everybody how have an opportunity to slip away just do it, the other have to bend under this regime. However, Tbilisi's government is a community of criminals and this kind of people should be punished in the same way as they act (like in a jail). There should be only one exception if you want to shout down this conflict there's only two ways: to kill ALL osetians or to do the same with Tbilisi regime. The last would be more effective because Georgia has the same familiar ot Osetia issue with other regions.

"probably because they still do not have any kind of economy " patially true. Russia hasn't free economy.
"Look at the "enemys" russia looks to itself " wrong. Conflict started with bombing sleeping Tshinval, and after invaded Georgian troops in Tshinval. It took more than 12 hours to reply for that attack.
"small flea size countrys who just want to live in peace" isn't Southern Osetia the one theritory under conflict with Georgia.
And one more I know that it's easier to use a nationality and country names but most of russians, georgians and obviouse osetian pray about peace but all what's happening is just a decisions of mad governors.

I hope so - it could get real messy if that develops into full blown conflict, which it certainly has the potential to do so.

No NATO Country is going to get involved directly, their populations would not allow it, even if their governments thought otherwise. For sure the US wont, too busy elsewhere, and I cant see the American Population even thinking about it seriously, let alone do it with events elsewhere in the world.

Ethnic cleansing... why is there always ethnic cleansing?

Ethnic cleansing... why is there always ethnic cleansing?

You should know the PR game by now... :)

I wonder if this will push more countries over to NATO.

Not likely, especially when they see there will be no backup if a major power decides to pick a fight. I think plans for the US missile defense system will come to a swift halt too.

This has changed the political landscape in the region and the full impact won't be known for quite some time. People will be less likely to ignore Russia, especially if they decide for a full invasion.

I wonder if this will push more countries over to NATO.

Most of Georgian and Ukrainian people are, in fact, against joining NATO. In these so called democratic countries, people's opinion will make no difference, as a corrupted official will sign their country over and won't think twice about it.

There is no hope of US involvement. In fact, NATO, Israel, etc., will all make a quick exit if this escalates.

Sure, there be a lot stiff words, but there is no much they can do unless they want all out war with Russia. That would swiftly turn nuclear, so its not an option.

Probably too little too late unless this gets stretched over a long timeline. Which of course would be horrible for the citizens.

All

CNN was reporting around 9:30 AM that the US was checking to see that all US citizens/troops/advisors are okay and contemplating moving Americans out.

What happens if an American citizen is killed in all of this? Are American troops considered combatants in this case or American citizens in an advisory capacity?

Scary stuff. The President of Georgia was putting a different spin on this - Russian tanks had been amassing at the border. Planes were shot down in retaliation for low flying by Russian planes - claimed self-defense.

The extent of actual US/UN/NATO involvement will probably come in the form of sanctions against Russia if this continues. Putin will then probably threaten his neighbors by cutting off the natural gas pipeline as he's done before (Gerhard Schroeder is a board member now of Gazprom). My guess though is that after an initial dustup or two things will settle down. The Ossetians may not like Saakashvili but I doubt they'd find Moscow's embrace any warmer.

You think we'll go so far as to sanction Russia? I can see us threatening sanctions, but I doubt we'll actually impose them.

Sanction Russia? :) On what grounds? How? Maybe the US will stop shipping GM and Ford cars, that sell like hot cakes and keeps those companies afloat in their most troubled times? Or perhaps tell Russia to sell Fannie and Freddie securities? Maybe put quotas on oil and natural gas? :) Seriously now, Russia is one of the hottest developing markets... Why would the US damage their fragile economy even further? The idea just seems absurd.

Guess the Georgian president wanted to deliver a fait accompli to the incoming US president. This is going to be interesting.

I bet you right. Anyway, don't you think this conflict is a great opportunity to solve this situation quickly and fast by supporting Russia? It sounds weird but it is obvious that Russian position support will demoralize Georgian government for sure, moreover if the US wants to have presents in this region this is a great chance to regain this presents and keep it afterward under peacekeeping mission. The US just could replace the Russian peacekeeper force which was taken out under agreement with Georgia (what led to this conflict), even more, current Tbilisi's actions could be used to set a truly pro-western government. The only way to do this is to back up Russian point of view. It would save so many lives.

I was just thinking the same thing!

Not sure.

I'm off to talk about Paris Hilton/John McCain or the NV member drama...

...wait.

Too early in its' news cycle. Give it 24 hours. Ba da bing, ba da boom!

A major world power is at WAR, we've got reports of "ethnic cleansing" coming in, and Georgia is asking for the US to get involved.

I would suspect that since American's have been told they were at "war" for the past 7 years, it has made them pretty numb to the news of any other "wars" that may sprout up.

what is the US supposed to do. Why would the US get involved. This is not our fight. I understand that Georgia supports us in our war on terror in iraq, however i am not sure that this would justify anything other than harsh words toward Putin.

Personally I would not even rattle a saber.

Conflict like this is why the US should maintain its military superiority.

So we have multiple nations and multiple battlefronts across the globe... can we go ahead and call this what it is? A world war...

Nah, this is more like a globally scaled hundred years war I think.

either way, its depressing...

I have to bring my daughter into this world?

You are so right, and the way Bush handles foreign crisis scares me this couldn't come at a worriers time. Our safety comes into question when he starts opening his big mouth. After his talk on Iran and our standing on policy with Pakistan, Israel and our forceful entry into Iraq along with Afghanistan What sanctions do we have to offer the Russia after some of our already failures of sanctions? They can hurt us economically, more than we can hurt them, like cutting off our one of our energy subsidies.

This is not our fight.

Was WWI? WWII? The Balkans? Who decides? This is a newly emerging democracy with aspirations to join NATO. How is that not our fight?

Its amazing how people give the US a hard time about the situation in Iraq, but now we are supposed to get involved in a combat situation with the Russ..

Aspirations to join NATO is not the same as being a member of NATO.

Was WWI? WWII? The Balkans? Who decides? This is a newly emerging democracy with aspirations to join NATO. How is that not our fight?

It's no that simple, they are not in NATO and besides the "democratic" country's civilians don't want to join NATO. If USA gets involved, this is not going to be and IRaq, Afghan type war, it will be brought hone here in the USA, it will spread. Then you have Iran, North Korea and China, who do you think they will support? It will be catastrophic... I don't even want to imagine it.

Aspirations to join NATO is not the same as being a member of NATO.

No, it isn't. But they aspire to join NATO, and, you know what, we'd like to have them. So yeah, it's not the same, but it's not altogether different, either. In any case, it's beside the point. Do we watch sovereign states fall by the wayside, just because it would be inconvenient to care about their freedom?

Then you have Iran, North Korea and China, who do you think they will support?

Why should I care who Iran or North Korea "support". And I think China would not support Russia. But then I wasn't aware freedom had devolved to a popularity contest.

The purpose of NATO is to preserve the members from aggression not to involve them in wars. I am not taking either "side" in this war but I do know that already the big losers are the civilians who are being killed wounded and displaced. Both sides should back off and the world should press them to do so.

The purpose of NATO is to preserve the members from aggression not to involve them in wars.

Uhm, via "peace through superior firepower". Which, alas, sometimes has to be used, or else its empty rhetoric, easily ignored.

Russia should back off because they invaded a sovereign nation. Georgia should back off because they're getting their asses handed to them by the Russians. But should Georgia give up its claim on the region? In my opinion, absolutely not, unless the Russians are willing to do the same with North Ossetia.

It doesn't sound like it. All ground to air defense.

Shooting down Russian aircraft isn't all that hard if they're in a ground-attack configuration. Planes are a little harder than the helicopters the Afghans were worrying about in the 1980s though. They've probably gotten a few and the Russians will be a bit more cautious when they engage targets from now on.

They've probably gotten a few

if so then I would say you are definitely coorect about

the Russians will be a bit more cautious when they engage targets from now on

The US should stay the hell out of this and I ams sure that is what we will do.

I have a sneaky suspicion that process has already started.

Bush and Putin at Olympics Opening Ceremony

One can't help but wonder if we hadn't been so reckless in Iraq if Russia would have dared?

A witness said about the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali night from 7 to 8 August. CNN is blatantly manipulated the facts. You can watch previously report by BBC, they quoted this witness even before the entry of Russian troops.

I've been watching movie when news shows up that Tshenval is under attack. It was 2.20 am 8 August.

because you aren't. you are being brought down to our level.

Didn't you know? "Top News" only applies to stuff people actually "care" about. /sarcasm

"come on we finally get a chance to go to war with russia lets go"

R u comletely stupid? Can you imaging what it could result in?
Ohh.. I know Russia isn't even a country at all just a several oil station... WRONG!!!!!!!!!
Russian forces are huge not that as US but... no one get out off this beathing

It has mostly to do with it. Bush and the neocons have destroyed in 8 short years what Nixon, Kissinger and Reagan accomplished over decades.
After the collapse of the Soviet Union, drunk with power and the idea that we won the cold war, Bush and his cronies went on to expand, expand and expand to the point of considering NATO membership for Georgia and an ABM system to be installed there.
Do You thin the Russians will allow an ABM system in Georgia? This would neutralize their missiles and make them vulnerable to our attacks and bombings, like we have done with evrybody who opposes us or we disagree with. If I were the Russians, I would bomb the Georgian sites before they have a chance to fisnih an ABM system there. its either war now, or war later. Watch how Russia takes this opportunity to get rid of Shalikaslivi.

You are so right about business in russia. Have you had a chance to face with russian officials? I decided to invest in US degree and get out off this country and I'm intend to do this till boarders won't been shut ted down.

Well trained pilots get shot down all of the time. The question is had Russia ever implemented modern air to ground technologies and tactics. All evidence points to the contrary, which would make ground attack aircraft highly vulnerable to ground fire and shoulder launched missiles.

I find it interesting that Bush demands the Russians pull out when we ourselves set a very low standard for invading a sovereign country half way around the world from us where this conflict is in the Russians backyard. A case of do as I say not as I do if I ever heard one.

Lucky, even if you think it's wrong for us to have invaded Iraq, that doesn't mean reasonably minded American's can't also think it's wrong for Russia to invade some other sovereign state, either.

Sorry for misstopic but you once mentioned "If the Russ wants to teach Georgia a lesson, who are we to get involved.". I want to reply: the US is the most powerful empire ever taken a role of world ruler. This means that the US should keep peace in the world but not Russia. I do realize that the peace keeping is conducted on US tax payers account what implies that it should lead to US profit but because the US bring under control all force world institutions it implies that US should to do what Russia is being doing now.
By the way why do you call Russians Russ? No offence.

That's why they are paid money =)

Wow. Messages coming out of the country have definitely been mixed, making it very difficult to figure out exactly what's going on.

If the above is true, however, why haven't the Russians put out a clear statement to that effect?

For years they were trying to DESTROY ossetians as a nation!!!!!!!!!!!!

So they're trying to destroy South Ossetia as a nation.... and yet it's perfectly OK that Russia has full control of North Ossetia, and wouldn't allow it to slip away or declare autonomy, either?

Chasing, why not North Ossetia wants to secede from Russia, and happily live together with South Ossetia, consisting of a united Georgia?
Historically, Ossetians have closer ties with Russia than with Georgia. Unified Ossetia under Stalin's order was divided into two parts, for ease of administration - Ossetia has been geographically divided Caucasus mountains. In Perestroika time Georgian and Ossetian nationalism began to grow rapidly. The first president of Georgia, Zviyad Gamsakhurdia, was the most ardent Georgian nationalist, proclaiming the slogan "Georgia for Georgians."
Naturally this state sooner or later it must lead to conflict, and of course the remaining there after the collapse of the Soviet Union, without orders from the center, Russian military units could not remain aloof from the conflict. Clearly, and on what side they have chosen to fight: Gamsakhurdia hated Russians and did not conceal this, and the southern Ossetians wanted to be reunited with their brothers in North Ossetia and be composed of Russian Federation, whose leadership at that time gave tremendous sovereign rights for national republics.
Reality is always more difficult than it shows on CNN, Chasing.

Chasing, why not North Ossetia wants to secede from Russia, and happily live together with South Ossetia, consisting of a united Georgia?

First, please don't presume that I get my information from CNN. Second, if North Ossetia wants to secede, fine, but that's a moot point, because both you and I know Russia wouldn't let them. And the North Ossetians know this too. Now, if they could fight a war with Russia and declare autonomy, maybe they would. But they can't, and so they haven't. As it stands, South Ossetia is considered by pretty much everyone except Russia to be part of Georgia. So of course Georgia wants to preserve its territorial integrity. How is this surprising? But if SO doesn't want to be a part of Georgia, and Georgia will just be wasting manpower, money, and goodwill trying to force them to stay, granted, a peaceful solution should be sought. One that does not involve a Russian attack not only into SO, but beyond it into Georgia proper.

I visited several times in North Ossetia, and people there do not have any desire to secede. Ossetia has been allied with Russia over the centuries, and not turned away even in the years of chaos after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Moreover, Ossetians fought on the side of Russia in all conflicts in the Caucasus.
Your idea why the anti-russian terrorists attacked on the Ossetian school in Beslan? Just because the Ossetians have always supported the Russians. After Beslan, Russia has enormous debt for the Ossetian people, and can not retreat.

I visited several times in North Ossetia, and people there do not have any desire to secede.

Presuming I take your word for it, what if they did?

In history there is no such thing - "what if they did?". Rather than play with words, you need to learn the real situation.

In history there is no such thing - "what if they did?". Rather than play with words, you need to learn the real situation.

Don't tell me I don't know the real situation, and don't tell me not to play with words. After all, that's what diplomacy is.

I notice you didn't answer the question, though.

Of course not. From the canned nature of the replies, I suspect a propaganda officer from the FSB. Putin is bringing back the Soviet Union under another name, and through just as bloody a means.

AdipicAcid, I'am IT specialist from Tyumen, Russia, and I have never voted for Putin, and I do not want the return of the Soviet Union. You may send me a letter on eraser_stp(/at/)mail.ru, and come visit me, it may convince you that I do not FSB officer. By the way the Russian Democratic Party Yabloko (The Apple), which is in stiff opposition to Putin, supported the Russia's action in South Ossetia.

I'm not sure why they're cracking on you, Eraser. Everything you're saying makes perfect sense to me, and I'm really glad to hear your viewpoint.

Do you see a way out of this mess? It seems the North Ossetians are perfectly happy where they are. The South Ossetians seemed to be ok for the most part, aside from the separatists. How strong are the separatist forces and influence? They must be becoming a legitimate threat if Georgia actually went through with these attacks.

I'm having trouble seeing path through the chaos... does it even exist?

otb, thank you very much for your understanding.
I think that the time for surgery. We must reunite South Ossetia with North Ossetia and give independence for Abkhazia. Russia must pay compensation Georgian refugees from Abkhazia, Ossetia and not to obstruct the entry of Georgia into NATO and the European Union. Of course, after all Georgians will become even more hated Russians, but people will not die.

I think that the time for surgery. We must reunite South Ossetia with North Ossetia and give independence for Abkhazia. Russia must pay compensation Georgian refugees from Abkhazia, Ossetia and not to obstruct the entry of Georgia into NATO and the European Union. Of course, after all Georgians will become even more hated Russians, but people will not die.

That was kind of what my mind was moving towards, but I wasn't sure if the Georgian's would be forced to compensate the SO's and assist in their relocation north of the Caucasus, or if as you stated the region of SO and Ak would be given autonomy and the georgian's moved out. It sounds like the ethnic makeup of SO would lend itself to your particular solution.

So the next question, are the people on both sides too proud to broker that agreement? It looks to me like the Russians have their excuse to exercise their might now, and don't have a whole lot of incentive to agree to such a deal other than world opinion, which doesn't seem to matter too much to them.

NO ONE WOULD LISTEN TO YOU. =( because it confronts with a US support of Georgian regim... Not matter that people dyeing, leader can't confesses such a misstake as Georgia's support. I think Bush's administration are beside themselves right now for that Tbilisy act but....